“One Nation Under God”, or “In God We Trust”, whether or not
you like the words, they are a staple of our American plight, and way of life,
if now in reference only. Our leaders
invoke God’s blessing when trying to uplift their constituents, mostly at the
end of a speech. Congressional meetings
are opened with a prayer, and I’m sure if you looked and care to be honest
there are many remnants of a culture more devoted to their Creator.
This isn’t a rant about all the unrepentant sinners, or a
pointless argument whether or not God exists.
This is a rant about the isolation and eviction of the traces of the God
that our country has referred to the last 200 plus years. It
signifies more than a “separation between church and state” it is more of a
down right disdain for Him, but this expulsion is limited only to the God of
the Bible and apparently not any other god.
For instance there are a number of occurrences in the news
media where our schools here in the US are teaching some of the tenets of Islam
in classrooms in more than just an educational way. The belief also being taught in our schools that
humans have evolved from animals or, even lower organisms, has not been proven
conclusively and the idea is less than 200 years old in its present form. The humanist aspect of this and other related
beliefs are a religion unto themselves, though its proponents will argue the
idea.
Again, my point is not to argue the validity of any of the
ideas presented in our schools. My point
of contention is, why do we have to vacate our public institutions of any trace
of the very God our founders spoke so highly of at the inception of our
country? Our founders never discouraged
people from worshiping other ideas, they were adamant however, that the
Christian message and teachings be present alongside any other belief. They were confident that God’s Word, if
represented equally and unabashedly, alongside anything other than the Gospel,
it would stand on its own merits. I
believe that’s the objection that Christians today have to the shut out of God
in our society.
I believe this to be true because the evidence that the
inverse is the case with the opponents of God: If these people that are atheists, agnostics,
skeptics, or even Democrats were confident of their beliefs, why would a belief
and the display of it be so offensive to them? The political correctness of
today embraces and protects a religion whose extreme believers are openly
hateful of the west and more personally the United States. I dare say our current leaders even promote
Islam in many cases. If us Christians
are a bunch of quacks, why not study our beliefs and not be afraid to engage in
the honest an open discussion why our founders referred to God over and over throughout
our country’s founding?
You know "under God" wasn't added until the 1950's right? I believe Christians are the ones defensive and fearful about opposing views. Read your post about the 4th of July. You are fearful of others.
ReplyDeleteThe founding fathers did not want religion to be part of the govt. That is the history. Have you ever read The Jefferson Bible written by Thomas Jefferson? He took out the miracles.
There were very diverse religions in the new colonies which is why there are State rights because they colonies were all so different based on religion and culture. We aren't that different not except we are all mixed together.
It is sad to me that evangelicals have ruined Christianity and turned off so many people including myself. Christianity is declining and it is because of evangelicals and the Catholic sex scandal probably didn't help either.
I know you mean well and believe that think you are doing right, but you have to believe that about others too. If you think satan is controlling us then you are setting up a us vs them which is what it seems to be at this point.
High School literature classes use bible stories. It simply isn't true that Christianity isn't allowed in schools. That is right wing propaganda you are picking up somewhere. When was the last time you were in a school?
Mad,
DeleteI couldn't disagree more. I am not sure what you are referring to with the Under God being added, possibly you might mean on currency, but references to God have been ingrained in our government institutions since it's inception. Telling the inhabitants of the brave new republic that their rights were endowed them by their Creator was a very clear reference. If it were anything else it would have had a stark contrast like our inalienable rights coming from self or some such drivvle. I've also heard all the references to Thomas Jefferson being an atheist or deist, and I have also read quotes from him that sound like he was a believer. In any event, proving that there were non-believers at the time of America's founding serves only to authenticate what we see today, that America indeed is the home to believer's and unbelievers as well. Same with the "diverse religions" in the colonies. My focus is the founding of our country and its clear allegiance and dependence on our Creator, God Almighty. You are correct that the church has depopularized Christianity and it has become interlaced with scandal, but that has no bearing on God, read Paul's letters to the church's in the New Testament, the early churches experienced apostasy and heresy back then, none of which is telling or demonstrates that our country wasn't founded as a Godly nation, only that God's Word is correct when describing human behavior. I am not one to listen to "right wing" or "left wing" talk, if anything I am a pragmatist, I observe and try to figure out what went wrong. I graduated in 1977, and many years before, Madelyn Murray O'Hare had made her crusade to remove school prayer, but she wasn't the first. If they do still use Bible stories in school, I,m glad, but I think you're mistaken if you are trying to say it gets a fair shake. As I stated earlier, our founders didn't mind having opposing views presented along side Christianity, because they knew Christianity would always prevail. I don't think the humanists are willing to take that same challenge with their new evolution ideas. They tend to try to squash any dissent rather than defend their theory. Sounds very familiar to a man named Stalin, or Hitler...
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ReplyDeleteGod does not mean Christian though. The creator is not necessarily your God. You are interpreting creator as God because that is your believe.
ReplyDeleteGod is not mentioned in the Constitution. There is no Jesus in the constitution. There is no Christianity in the constitution. The only reference is in the signature line where it says "year of our lord..." You cannot make the jump that Creator means God because they specify "their creator" indicating that it might be different for each person. For some it might be biology.
I don't understand why Christians believe the founders wanted a Christian country that was not their intent at all. The Colonies were at first divided somewhat based on religion. Beliefs were mostly Judeo Christian because everyone came the same geographic area, but the diversity between groups was wide and caused conflict. There was never an intent to impose the rules of one religion on those that believed differently and that is what current evangelicals are trying to do.
President Eisenhower signed the bill that added "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. Eisenhower was not a founding father by far.
In God We Trust was added to money during the civil war in 1861 because spirituality was on the upswing because of the war. This was 100 years late to be founding fathers.
I am not sure where you learned your history. I think you and I can agree that the founders were all about religious FREEDOM which gives you the freedom to worship as you wish, but also gives others the right to worship as they wish without interference from religious zealots especially religious zealots in government.
Thomas Jefferson certainly was a spiritual man, however, just because he mentioned God does not mean he was a Christian as you define it. He took out the miracles. I think Jefferson believed as I do that Jesus was merely a man as you are, but a man who was an excellent role model, mentor, and teacher at least that is the way I read the Bible and Jefferson's work. Jefferson did not believe in the trinity.
You are free to believe as you wish and I have no intention of interfering with your rights. Prayer does not belong in school because whose prayer are you going to give? Are you comfortable with me leading a prayer if your children were in my classroom? I might pray to mother earth or a purple spaghetti monster in the sky. I might tell your children they need to be saved the way I believe. I am sure you would object to my prayer so why do you think it is ok to do your prayer? There is no such thing as nondenominational unless perhaps you say Life or maybe Creator although I think that probably doesn't fit everyone either.
Again, I couldn't disagree more. Not that our Constitution has the words Christian, and Jesus in it, but if I understand correctly, that is exactly what our founders were trying to get away from, a government sponsored religion. What I disagree with is the notion that we cannot know the religious atmosphere of that time. We can certainly understand if we care to acknowledge history, the climate in terms of whom the masses called “Creator “ at that time and by the writings surrounding the invention of our government as we know it. I think to deny it or try to obscure who many our early founders believed in as their savior is to be disingenuous or promoting a revision of history.
ReplyDeleteI don’t think our founder’s wanted to force or coerce anyone to do anything. I understand history to recount them as wanting religious freedom and no suppression of anyone’s beliefs. I do however believe they were mostly of Christian belief and by that, most certainly wanted to share their beliefs.
Christianity by its own definition is not a belief that can be forced on an individual at any rate. If it ever has been, it was surely heretical, as the most important component is to believe, not be brainwashed. I can understand the pushback from non-believer’s today and in the past, but it is directed at the messengers, not the message. I heartily agree people are fallible, very fallible. If you want to be angry, be angry at God Almighty, because He is ultimately whom we will all stand before someday. I hope you understand I don’t want to stamp out other beliefs, just ensure Christianity is left alone to always be present for those who love it, and to be contrasted to any other beliefs.
There probably was a differentiation of beliefs in the colonies; however, by reading the writings of the founders and signers of the Declaration of Independence and the framers of the Constitution, it’s tough to say their intent was to promote the purple spaghetti monster. I can see an undeniable theme in the way those documents were written. As I understand it, they were sick and fed up with the British government‘s state religion as dictated by the king being forced on them. So I cannot imagine them tying the rules of the new government to any religion. And most certainly they weren't promoting a theocracy, and neither am I.
Again, I only want what the 1st Amendment provides:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. “
Don’t prohibit Christians from exercising their beliefs…period. We can study evolution, it is even taught as fact, we can learn about and even defend Islam and in some areas practice their rituals on school property. I am not nearly as upset at evolution being taught as fact, it’s with the concerted effort to remove any sign of one belief: Christianity. If the purple spaghetti monster worshipers want to bow down twice a day and eat Chef Boyardee, I couldn’t care. I believe Christianity is seen as a threat to these other ideas, otherwise why would anyone care? Instead I hear platitudes from folks saying no one can really know for sure, and there were unbelievers present at the founding of our country. If Christianity is no threat, why bother with it? It has the largest push back aimed toward it of any belief today. Atheists should be ecstatic.
I also resent the idea that atheists, or non-believer’s try to choose the tone by declaring some Christians as zealots and extremists. I think some of the very folks pointing those fingers are of the polar opposite in terms of extremes and more intolerant than anyone by not allowing us to have free speech and exercise of our beliefs without condemnation and ridicule.
Can you give one example of when your first amendment right has been violated? I believe this blog is absolute proof you can proclaim your love for Jesus as loudly as you'd like. Teacher's wear religious shirts to school and are allowed to have religious items at their desk (thanks to the evil ACLU I might point out)
ReplyDeleteChristians are much more pushy that they have ever been in my memory. When I was a child, Christians schools (mostly catholic) never excluded children who did not believe the same thing. God used to be enough, but now it has to be a certain belief in Jesus. Some Christian schools and colleges only let you in if you believe the same thing. To me that is showing fear of the outside world. Why do they fear me?
When I was in school Jehovah Witness children were sent to the office during music so we could sing Christmas songs to practice for the program. Would you want your kids sent to the office so the rest of the students could celebrate and have fun without them simply because you were in the minority?
When you want the majority religion to be more dominant in public schools you are asking for a type of theocracy. Why do we need to teach what most children already know? When your pastor comments publicly on Facebook that we shouldn't trust any Muslims that is fear, bigotry, and a lack of tolerance for other beliefs. I would never no Christian can be trusted. I actually have lots of Christian friends. I would say certain Christians can't be trusted (but I would not even lump those by denomination, but by specific beliefs).
There is no way schools can teach every belief which is why religion should not be included at all. It doesn't sound to me like you would like your children to have an Islam teacher who leads them in prayer if that was to happen. If Christianity isn't allowed in schools why is Young Life allowed and why does the elementary school have a Good News Club? I took my children out of public school because Christianity was so inescapable. Think about the minority for a moment. What if your children attended a school where 90% were Muslim and religion was allowed? My understanding is that you homeschooled your children even living in a school district with a pervasive Christian slant. What were you afraid of?
Your information is skewed and inaccurate. You have opinions, but no facts. Again, I ask when you last spent time in a school. You are obviously not getting your information from real life.
I do believe Christianity is the BIGGEST threat to America as we know it. It is the biggest threat to our civil liberties and our freedom you supposedly love because as a general rule evangelical Christians do want everyone to be Christian and they want everyone to live under their rules. If Muslims were trying to do what you are doing how would you feel about that? What if Muslims were trying to gain control of the House and Senate to pass bills about what you can do to your own body or who you can marry based on their beliefs?
I do not Christianity as threat to ideas to anyone with a brain who will evaluate things, but Christians brainwash people which makes it a cult in my book. Christianity is a faith. Faith by definition means you cannot prove it. It is like Santa Claus an ancient myth with no base of evidence. If you want to believe in Santa Claus and it helps you live a good life great, but don't go around telling my kids they will be "better" if they also believe in Santa Claus. There is a reason why people with less education tend to be evangelical and those with more education and intelligence tend to be atheists (http://www.humanreligions.info/intelligence.html#IQ). I'm sure you will argue the source, but don't bother it is a no brainer if you examine the research.
I wrote so much I had to make it into 2!
ReplyDeleteApostle Paul skewed things in my opinion. You call yourself Christian, but you are not following the words of Jesus. You are following the words of Paul and other later prophets. There is no evidence that it came from any God or Creator. Jesus taught "the Lord our God is One" and when someone referred to him as "Good Master" he replied, "No one is good, but God alone." If you read the Sermon on the Mount it is obvious Jesus would have worshipped with anyone including Buddha, Socrates, Gandhi, or Mohammad yet supposedly Christian schools only allow Christians by their definition in their door? Jesus wasn't even a Christian by your definition since he never taught that one had to proclaim their belief in him to have access to God. He was humble. He had zero requirements for love. He didn't even mind homosexuals or prostitutes. Love was his message, not hate.
I choose to follow Jesus, but not as a Christian. You can choose to follow Paul and others. That is the freedom we get in this country and schools and government must be sensitive to the differences because someday you might be in the minority and I believe that is why Christians are pushing so hard to take things over and make it a theocracy. However, I do not believe it will happen,but only because there are liberal Christians who will try to moderate those of you that are extreme.
I get confused by conservatives who say they want less government, but then start advocating laws which restrict freedoms. You don't want less government. You just want government that controls others and not you.
Hello Again Mr. or Ms. Mad. Thank you for your great comments. I have not personally ever had my first amendment rights violated, that I know of other than The Daily World sometimes won’t print my letters to the editor, but that is their prerogative. What I was thinking of when I referred to letting the first amendment be carried out was the news stories I have heard of making schools remove the ten commandments, disallowing prayer, not allowing creationism, or ID, be as discussed or taught as evolution and the like.
ReplyDeleteChristian’s have become more docile in my view as I have aged. Not to be argumentative, it just seems like now a days the only recognition Christians get is in portrayed as not normal and in such a way as to make them seem strange. (I realize at this point you are probably agreeing…) I think Christians are just the same in their daily life as the next person. I don’t know many believers that you can’t say “I’d really rather not talk about religion if you don’t mind” that wouldn’t honor your request. The reason I think Christians are more laid back now is the same reason white people tiptoe around black people an talking about race. Society has portrayed Christianity just as you are trying to portray them and most people don’t want to be labeled as such, even though I believe it is not an accurate portrayal. So you see the more people are antagonistic to Christianity the more part of today’s believer’s retreat into their shell and seek refuge away from the rest of the world and what you say becomes a cycle. Not because their faith has changed or is telling them to, but it is the course of least resistance. The Bible say to believers: “Be in the world, but not of the world” To me that has always carried the notion of participating in all the world has to offer with the exception of things not flattering to God. I don’t get the fear part???
When I was in school the Jehovah’s went to the library or the office during Christmas celebration by their parent’s choice, I don’t think “sent” was the right choice of word for their absence. Again, I’m not advocating teaching Christianity in school, but I think by virtue of the time honored Christmas celebrations in schools in our day, God’s representation in those kinds of activities are a pretty good indication where we as a nation have come from. Just saying.
I never said I want Christianity to “dominate” in public schools, just be allowed to be equally represented alongside evolution, and any other Johnny come lately ideas. I am not sure which Facebook posts from Roger you mean, but I am willing to guess he was probably referring to the same types of Muslims that were attributed with the 9-11 destruction. I can’t know which one you meant for sure. But if it was the case, yes I do fear terroristic types like that, has nothing to do with their religion unless part of it is killing the infidels, and if in their eyes I am one, I mind a lot. I think it is wrong headed to call his comments bigoted, as I think that is your opinion, and you should note it that way. I am going to jump out there on a limb and say if given your obvious position regarding Christians, one or a group of them ruthlessly killed 2-3,000 Americans in a bloody explosion; you too would easily endorse not trusting Christians, it may be a leap, but I’m guessing.
Again, I have never advocated public school teaching religion of any kind other than incidentally, but if they are going to teach evolution, then let creationism be taught too! Geez. I did not know about “Young Life” and “The Good News Club” meeting on school grounds, I stand corrected.
PART II
ReplyDeleteWe home schooled our kids to be sure they got the “equal” representation for Christianity that I am speaking of. They went to high school publically. Sounds like you did the same for the opposite reason. I for the life of me don’t know how Elma High has a “pervasively Christian slant”. If you think about it the environment we sent our kids into was 90% another belief (give or take). We just decided to give them the best foundation we thought we could. What I was afraid of by sending my kids to school unprepared then, is the same thing I am afraid of now, which is where they will be spending eternity.
I may mess up a few things, but exactly what information have I skewed? Is it skewed to you because it differs from what you want to believe? What facts am I missing? How are my real life perceptions somehow not valid? Again, is it because I see things differently than you?
This paragraph baffles me:
“I do believe Christianity is the BIGGEST threat to America as we know it. It is the biggest threat to our civil liberties and our freedom you supposedly love because as a general rule evangelical Christians do want everyone to be Christian and they want everyone to live under their rules. If Muslims were trying to do what you are doing how would you feel about that? What if Muslims were trying to gain control of the House and Senate to pass bills about what you can do to your own body or who you can marry based on their beliefs?”
I know I am stepping in it, because the above paragraph opens a whole NEW set of worms to be chewed, but suffice it to say, no Christians are saying you can’t be a homosexual, just that you can consider marriage between to men or two women as being the same as the marriage between a man and a woman. As far as doing stuff to your own body, I can’t stop you. But if you mean reaching into a woman’s womb and killing a baby in the safest environs God established? Yes, but I don’t think it’s just a Christian thing, just a common sense thing. Murder is bad. Sorry if that is too judgemental. A lot of non-believers would stand against the organized killing of millions of innocent little babies. But hey, like you say Christians are the crazy ones, we are so silly that way wanting to save little babies from death, and preserving time honored institutions like marriage. You’re right, we’re the mess up ones, standing in the way of real moral progress.
As for the I. Q. slam, you’re right it’s a no brainer and I will take exception with the source. It says right at the bottom the data is surreptitiously supplied by a big time atheist, no ax to grind here. Does lack of I.Q. equal a lack of discernment? Poor people probably have a lower I.Q. too, are they bad people?
I am glad to hear your first amendment rights are intact. School administrators do stupid things everywhere so I suspect that explains some of the news stories. The 10 Commandments do not belong in school for the same reason you don't want Islam's 5 Pillars of Faith in your children's school. I would have no objection if all the faiths were included, but that would be impossible.
ReplyDeleteAs far as where I think your information is skewed it is what you think goes on in public schools. You admit you have not been in school and are making conclusions based on certain news stories which may or may not be accurate. Sure there are kids that are not Christian at school and your children might pick up some things from them, but some of those things might be good! My kids have lots of Christian friends, in fact, most of their friends are Christian, except those than are Hindi, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh, and atheists. They are all great people with wonderful families and high morals.
What is traditional marriage? I suspect you mean traditional as in Christian. If you follow the Bible it must be polygamy. I think the solution is to remove marriage from the government completely and make it only a religious ceremony. Marriage rules don't serve any purpose since women are no longer restricted to staying home with children. Jesus spoke a lot about divorce (which Christian politicians are not rallying against), but not about homosexuality. The government has no business in marriage. Marriage is a good example of where Christians want to dictate the lives of others because of their belief. Marriage is two adults making a decision that hurts no one. Marriage rules are different even among Christian denominations and some would do away with divorce or at least second, third, fourth, and fifth marriages. I could agree with that, but only for my life. I will not impose it on others.
Abortion isn't worth discussing because it is a matter of when one believes life begins. You admit that it is a Christian thing, therefore, you are admitting that you are wanting laws based on your Christian beliefs. I do not think it is my place to make that decision for another for a non-viable being. Non-viable it my belief. It is a difficult and emotional topic. Certainly woman who are raped have no choice in whether or not they become pregnant. Certainly you won't argue that God intended the woman to be raped and become pregnant.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteI have extremely high morals and many of them are certainly Christian values. The question becomes how many of them should I be able to impose on others. I don't believe in eating meat, but I will not restrict you from doing so. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus ever eat meat. That is my belief. Should I impose it on you? Government should not be telling us who to marry or if we can eat meat. That is what freedom means.
I would suggest that intelligence and education lead to people thinking more for themselves and questioning more which leads to less faith. I'm not saying it is a good thing or a bad thing, necessarily, just a reality. I think the article I shows that science and faith have trouble co-existing. That makes sense because if you look for evidence faith has none simply based on definition. Some people are more interested in facts and evidence.
Anytime someone stereotypes one group of people based on the actions of a few I would say that person is a bigot. We can disagree on that.I don't know your pastor so I am basing my opinion only on what I read. We all say dumb things sometimes. If I said I don't trust any white men because they shoot people in schools and theaters you would say that wasn't rational or fair. From 1970-2012 2.5% of terrorism in the US was by Muslims, but almost 5% were Jewish and 7% were Christian terrorists. Your pastor's statement was not fair or accurate. Let's not trust those Christian white men because they bomb medical clinics. Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people and injured 600 in his attempt to save white Christian society so he could be labeled a Christian terrorist. Many of the skinhead groups are Christian and could be called Christian terrorists. Just as you would say those aren't real Christians, Muslims terrorists are not the mainstream either they are an extreme just like the Christians I have pointed out. I do not judge you by those Christians. Certainly, terrorists groups, including Muslim extremists, should be watched, but we are more likely to be killed by almost anything else.
The instances where I object is when the ten commandments or other item that may have a Christian background involved with it, is when it is part of the school from years past. I believe as I have said that America has a Godly heritage and implore atheists or antagonists to just disagree and quit trying to change what is. I can’t think of a time ever in this country before present day that any Muslim writings or icons have been part of our history enough to put in schools, so I think that idea doesn’t make sense.
ReplyDeleteI have to reiterate: I have no desire to “force” Christianity on anyone. Honestly I don’t think it can be done as I believe it is a work of the Holy Spirit on a person’s heart. Like I said before, I can tell you about my beliefs, but if you don’t want to hear it wouldn’t be advantageous for me to keep harping on you. I get the impression you don’t want any Christian vestiges in public places because you don’t want to see them, so possibly you see it as being forced on you and others though I don’t think everybody share you disdain for Christianity in public. Also, my kids have more non-believing friends, than believers. I’m not saying that to brag, it’s just that we didn’t homeschool them to hide them from people of other or no faith, but just to give them a foundation. I think you have a thing with thinking Christianity is a bunch of rule and Christians are the religious police that rack up points in heaven if they can make people on earth submit. I apologize if I am wrong, but you persist on this idea.
Again, if you want to harm your body, I cannot stop you, that is ultimately between you and God. If you want to sleep, marry, have a union, whatever with a member of the same sex, it out of my hands. My involvement in you being a homosexual, or self-mutilation, would be the same as telling you of my faith, if you don’t want to hear, I won’t tell you any more, simple as that. Where a defenseless innocent baby is involved, I will be more boisterous, and even that is sad because I cannot force you to cease from killing the baby. I think it is ludicrous to scratch your head or depend on a court to determine something so obvious as when conception, or life begins so you can sooth your conscience about the systematic murder of innocent infants. The very same unviable tissue mass is rubbed through the mother’s tummy and cooed over at the very point the courts say it’s not a viable human. I think the whole thing is despicable, and a sad testament to the human race, Christian or not. It is ALWAYS worth discussing. The woman and man made the choice when they had sex; they just have decided to kill the baby to avoid the responsibility of raising one or giving it up for adoption.
I don’t have a concordance handy, but according to the Bible, Jesus ate fish several times in His recorded life. He also performed miracles that resulted in feeding His disciples and many people fish, which I have always thought was meat. Jesus spoke about sexual sin, which is pretty clearly identified in the Bible and of which Homosexuality is right in there. And you’re right; I don’t think the government has any business in marriage. If it were a private issue, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
We could go back and forth for a long time, trying to one up the other guy (or girl) and neither would give in. I have listened to liberals, or non-believers try to tell me what I as a Christian am trying to do or accomplish, and it’s simply not accurate. I don’t think other than religious views and how it dictates our moral understanding, we are any different than each other. We still want a good prosperous life, free from oppression, (I assure you, I am not trying to force anything on you) to see our kids healthy and grow up to have a great life, and all the happy day to day stuff we have in common. I am saddened that it appears to me that there is this great rift that is hard for some people to get past regarding Christians.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteIn a time we really need to be united, we are at odds. I think this is costing us, and our kids a lot, which won’t be fully realized until the damage is apparent, and in some ways very difficult to reverse. You can call me a nut, but that’s the way I see it.
Intelligence? I don’t necessarily believe discerning and understanding are mutually exclusive with intelligence quotients. If you believe men’s intelligence is final, then at what point is it exhausted and we can be sure he knows everything conclusively? Man’s understanding changes like the wind. I’ll trust God, on that one and we’ll have to agree to disagree. Furthermore, I think a lot of the “science” man knows today has a political motivation. Maybe not to us at the grassroots, but the boys at the top see our willingness to embrace crap like global warming as a meal ticket for them to capitalize on. Maybe that’s where the term “tools” came from? Who knows.
As far as the paragraph about being bigoted, I don’t know what you mean, as I said: “if it was the case, yes I do fear terroristic types like that, has nothing to do with their religion unless part of it is killing the infidels, and if in their eyes I am one, I mind a lot.” I only care if the folks in the afore mentioned religion want to hurt or kill humans as their understanding of their religion. No bigotry here (please refer to the part about us all being similar other than religion.). That goes for killers claiming to be Christian too.
We can talk about rape, incest and abortion another time I have to get home for dinner.
You are saying two completely different things though. You say you don't want to force it on others, but you insist it has to be in schools and government because of tradition? Men used to be allowed to beat their wives because it was tradition. Should we allow that too? Why does Christianity need to be in school when you don't want the other religions in school?
ReplyDeleteYou say you don't care what other people do, but then support people and laws that do restrict people's rights. That just makes no sense to me at all. I don't fear it, but it certainly isn't welcoming to a new kid who might have a different background.
That is what confuses me. Why do we need to have laws about individual behavior that doesn't harm others unless you want people to conform to your religious beliefs? Why not leave it as an issue between them and God? It isn't your business. It isn't the government's business.
There is only one line in the entire new testament that indicates Jesus ate fish. Since there is only one I think it is possible it was added at some point - a forgery. I don't think he objected to others eating it. I believe he chose not to eat it.
Luke and Matthew can't even agree on Jesus' birth. There stories are quite different which kinda blows a hole in the idea that the Bible is all God's word. I believe it is possible for one line to have been changed by someone along the way by someone that wanted to eat meat or at least seafood.
I believe all life is sacred and that includes animals. So in your world you would say it is ok for me to ban freedom loving Americans from killing any animal or aborting an animal. Cool. I like your world as long as I get to be in charge.
If your pastor would have said not to trust any terrorists I would not be calling him a bigot, but instead he said not to trust Muslims. He included many innocent people in that statement just as I would if I said "white christian males can't be trusted". There is no good and there is no love in his statement. Jesus was about love and nothing else.
A woman who is raped does not have a choice about whether or not she is pregnant. How about we just require men to have vasectomies at puberty and they can pay to reverse them when they are old enough, responsible enough, and rich enough to have children based on my opinion?
Did I read you right? Did you say you were willing to give up government recognition of marriage. If you are willing to give it up then why not make it equal for all? You aren't upholding any tradition by giving it up. Please clarify.
ReplyDeleteSo to wrap this conversation up.
ReplyDeleteWe agree that marriage should not be the government's business.
We agree we should have the freedom to worship as we choose (I think).
My perception is your opinions and your beliefs do not match up. For example, you say you don't want a theocracy, but you want Christian traditions left alone. One reason you might have the skewed perception that other religious are given more freedom in schools is the fact that Christians are giving their holidays off. If you are Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, or anything else there is generally school on your religious holidays. If Christmas was not a holiday I am sure schools would accommodate those students who wanted to go pray without disrupting the classroom just as Muslims are allowed to go to a private prayer room during Ramadan. I think that is reasonable. Christianity is pervasive in our schools because it is the tradition. Go to a HS Choral concert in most district and almost every song is Christian. Even at the winter holidays I have been to some HS concerts where even the diversity songs are about Jesus even though they are in a different language.
Christian science teachers do manage to stick in creationism when they can. I have been told that Elma once had a creationism speaker. Do you know anything about that? You only want your creation story included. Why not the turtle story? There are many creationism stories not just your version. You only want your 10 commandments on the walls. You would object to the 5 Pillars. You say it is tradition, but that is just an excuse.
You say you can't force someone to become Christian. Yes, that is true, but you can make behaviors outside your Christian beliefs illegal and I think that is what you do desire. You don't care so much that someone is Christian only that they behave as you think people should. You haven't said how you would feel if people who believe as I do made it illegal to eat meat. I see what you are doing as exactly the same - imposing one person's beliefs on another.